#5 - Pascal Niquille - On getting people to follow you

Nisha Pillai 00:00:06

Wherever we look, our world is facing a huge range of unprecedented challenges. So if you were a leader right now, how would you navigate your way through this? How do you make decisions in the teeth of so much uncertainty? How are you going to reconnect your people and rebuild your team so that they're fit to face the future? And what does that even mean to be a leader in such an increasingly challenging world?

These and other questions I've been putting into top business leaders from across Europe. And I've had some surprisingly candid responses. So why don't you join me, Nisha Pillai, for the latest episode brought to you by Sherpany of The Agenda.

My guest today believes that one of the key challenges for a leader is to stay focussed come what may. Pascal Niquille is a former CEO of the Zugar Kantonalbank in Switzerland. And there he completely changed the focus of the bank, but it was a long slog. Shall we find out why? Well, here he is.

Welcome, Pascal. Good to have you with us on The Agenda.

Pascal Niquille 00:01:18

Hi, Nisha, I'm glad to be here.

Nisha Pillai 00:01:22

Pascal, when we last spoke, you said that what's most important for leaders is to avoid distractions. Why does that matter to you so much?

Pascal Niquille 00:01:33

Well, Zuger is a great place. When I joined to the Kantonalbank in 2009, it was the typical small Swiss retail bank focussing on mortgages, but had no wealth management at all. But as I said, Zuger is a great place. Many wealthy people, very international. So it was obvious to me that this was the way to go. And I needed to get the bank focussed on really this way, which was completely new for everybody.

Nisha Pillai 00:02:06

So where were the distractions? It sounds like you had a great strategy.

Pascal Niquille 00:02:10

Well, as I said, there was absolutely nothing regarding wealth management, so we had to bring in the knowhow, which means we had to bring in people. We had to build up structures.

We had to really get the bank into wealth management. And wealth management is banking, but is a separate way of banking. People doing mortgages, doing retail business are not wealth managers, so it changes culture a lot if you bring in such a new business.

Nisha Pillai 00:02:49

For instance, how does it change the culture? What do you have to create?

Pascal Niquille 00:02:55

Well, it's the way people think. Mortgage people bring something to the clients, we give them money so they can buy their houses. Wealth management is different.

In wealth management you the client brings us the money, so we look for it. And so the kind of people you need to do this business are different, completely different. A wealth manager doesn't dare to ask as many questions as somebody working with mortgages.

The wealth manager wants you to bring your money, so he is much kinder with the client than when you ask for a mortgage. Then I give you the money, so I don't need to be as kind as a wealth manager. I want to know who you are. I want to know what you do with your money. With my money.

Nisha Pillai 00:04:05

So, did you have to bring in a whole different breed of person into the organisation? Or were you able to somehow change the mortgage focussed staff into this different breed, this kind of banker that you've just described?

Pascal Niquille 00:04:22

You can't change these people. There is a reason why they chose this type of business within banking. I mean, there is a reason you become a mortgage banker. It's the type of person you are. So you can change a mortgage bank into a wealth manager, that's completely different.

So we had to bring in new people with this specific know-how for wealth management. At the start, there was 10 people. So a group of 10 people we put together and made sure we had all the know-how and could start to build up a track record, so we could show our people that we are our clients, that we are in this business.

Nisha Pillai 00:05:07

So you said it's very important not to get distracted when you're trying to create something new. How long did you think it would take to create this whole new area for Zugar Kantonalbank? And how long did it actually taken reality?

Pascal Niquille 00:05:24

I was convinced that it would take about three to five years to get a track record to get all the people ready and convince clients that they should work with us.

Finally, it took us almost 10 years.  And many reasons were coming from outside the bank, but distractions were also within the bank. I mean, to change culture, to bring in new business, it takes time for people to really accept that this is the right way to go.

Nisha Pillai 00:06:05

It was obvious to you. But was it obvious to the whole organisation that this was the right course to do?

Pascal Niquille 00:06:13

I mean, that's the hard thing to really convince your organisation. And until you see real money pouring in, people don't believe you. That's why it took so long after seven years, we really started seeing it in the financial figures that the business is coming.

Nisha Pillai 00:06:43

So in the period before it became evident that the money was pouring in and this business was going to work. Who did you have to consult? Who were you able to share your thoughts with because presumably within the organisation itself, everyone didn't necessarily agree with you.

Pascal Niquille 00:07:08

I was working over the whole time with a personal coach, and that helped me a lot. She is not coming from banking, so I mean the know-how I had myself. But what I needed is somebody who helped me find the right way to convince all my people that this is the way to go. And she is really an expert in how to find your way to convince your people and make them follow.

Nisha Pillai 00:07:47

So what did you learn from your coach who wasn't a banker?

Pascal Niquille 00:07:52

Well, I learnt that, if you have an idea as a CEO and you're convinced that this is the right way to go, it doesn't mean that everybody else is believing the same thing. You're convinced of and that it takes time and effort to convince them.

And sometimes it's not even that they don't believe you. It's maybe just not in their benefit to do what you want them to do. I mean, there are several reasons why they wouldn't follow, but it. It's always the same, you need some people to start following and then you get the organisation slowly behind you.

Nisha Pillai 00:08:49

Could you give us an example, Pascal, of how you changed the way you were communicating with your, with your teams, with your bank staff as a result of the intervention and advice of your coach?

Pascal Niquille 00:09:08

I became much, much more personal, individual in my communication and probably even more open. In the beginning, I always thought it's so easy, it's so clear to see that you don't have to explain too much.

And then I started to communicate more in detail, I started to write CEO letters, which I always wrote myself, letters not too long, but long enough to have real details in there and explain it in words that everybody could understand.  I made meetings with employees in small groups, 10-15 people to explain what we wanted to do, why we wanted to do it, and this takes a lot of time.

And I think the annoying thing for yourself is that you tell the same story again and again and again, and that's not really fun, but that's why I needed somebody to tell me that's the way to go.

Nisha Pillai 00:10:29

And it made a difference?

Pascal Niquille 00:10:31

It made a huge difference, yes. It made a huge difference in two ways. One is you explain it to people, but the other thing I think is also that people realise that you take time to make them understand. So you take off from your personal time for them.

Nisha Pillai 00:10:57

Did your coach ever stop you from doing something? Stop you from making what could have been an error?

Pascal Niquille 00:11:06

Oh, many times, yes. When I met her, I always had my plan. And the good thing was that when we met, I explained to her what I wanted to do, how I wanted to do it, and she started asking easy questions.

But the easy questions are the nasty questions. And sometimes she pointed to the little details, I knew I hadn't really thought through it in detail, but I didn't really want to take the time to do it. And then we discussed it and found new ways and found better ways.

Nisha Pillai 00:11:53

Can you give us an example?

Pascal Niquille 00:11:55

Well, generally, it was always I was too fast. I always thought telling them once, explaining it once, it's enough. It's so easy to understand, they can understand they're intelligent enough and they can follow. But it's not a question of intelligence. It's a question of taking time, giving time, and sometimes also give the opportunity to understand yourself.

Nisha Pillai 00:12:34

So you're now a member of a number of boards having moved on from Zuger Kantonalbank. You're chairman of one, the credit card issuer, Viseca. You also have to have a good relationship with your CEO and your top management.

Was that tested at all when you were working at Viseca and you moved into the chairmanship role at a time of big strategic change?

Pascal Niquille 00:13:04

I was becoming President of the board in 2017, I came on the board in 2015, so I was just two years as a board member there. We had a good CEO, but a little earlier the company had plans to make an IPO and the shareholders finally decided against it. And the CEO we had, he and the company as a whole was still on the IPO trip.

So, when I became President of the board, I really had to change the company from being on the IPO trip back to the strategy we set at that time. It was not possible to change the CEO, which I could understand, but so we had to find a new one. Really a CEO who then could start from scratch with the new strategy, and build up the company again.

Nisha Pillai 00:14:24

Is there any advice that you give? Are there any learnings that you share with the CEOs you work with on the management boards that you sit on that come from your years of running Zuger Kantonalbank, 10 years as CEO of that, after all?

Pascal Niquille 00:14:43

Well, that's an interesting point, because on the one side, you're always, well, as you have so much experience, you always think that, you know, in detail what they should do. And on the other hand, you should let them do it their way.

So you need to find a way between setting strategy and letting them do it the way they want to do it. And probably just advise if they come and ask. But don't advise before they need your advice.

Nisha Pillai 00:15:31

Pascal, you've told us about the importance of being prepared to change an organisation and set a long term course. But many leaders don't really have the luxury of time in a very fast moving world with a lot of digital challenges, for instance. So what would you say to them?

Pascal Niquille 00:15:51

Have your long term view. Not everything which happens today and you think is important is strategic. So be focussed on your long term view and try to separate the daily needs and strategic needs. And this way, you can really focus on a longer term.

Nisha Pillai 00:16:18

Have you advised any of the CEOs that you now work with to have a coach from outside the industry?

Pascal Niquille 00:16:27

Yes. That's something I tell everybody, to work with the coach. But you need to find your own coach. I mean, you need to find somebody you trust and. Yeah, you're lucky if you find somebody.

Nisha Pillai 00:16:47

How painful is that, though? How uncomfortable is that for you, though, as the leader of an organisation, a successful person to be constantly having this bit of grit, this reality check coming from the coach?

Pascal Niquille 00:17:06

Well, as a  CEO, as a leader, you tend to lose people who ask you the nasty questions. So it's even harder if you hire somebody and pay him or her to ask nasty questions and disturb what you're doing.

And that's also why it really needs somebody. And you can trust, but he or she can trust you as well. If he or she already has two good questions and brings you back to reality, that it's not the last coaching session.

Nisha Pillai 00:17:48

So drawing the threads of our conversation together, then Pascal is there a final message you'd like to leave our listeners with?

Pascal Niquille 00:18:00

Yes, I would sum it up in the way that if you want to change an organisation and change is always necessary. Be patient. It always takes more time than what you think and what you hope.

Keep your freedom. Keep your freedom by properly controlling costs, then for it and shareholders will let you do your work and don't lose reality, and a coach helps.

And last but really not least, keep your private life well-organised. Then you have enough time to do your job.

Nisha Pillai 00:18:52

Pascal, you say your private life should be organised, but how do you do that when you're the CEO and you've got to deliver on your target, and your board is breathing down your neck? It's easy to say, harder to deliver, no?

Pascal Niquille 00:19:07

I think it's important that you stay trustworthy for your family, and probably the most important thing I did over the last 10, 15 years is that I always planned my vacation 18 months in advance and I never changed any dates.

Nisha Pillai 00:19:26

That's very funny, so that's your top tip to young executive for a happy relationship. Stick to your holiday commitments.

What advice would you give yourself, the younger Pascal Niquille, so that you would have been more prepared for leadership when you entered the CEO job at Zuger Kantonalbank?

Pascal Niquille 00:19:49

Focus more at university on social sciences and really try to learn all the techniques, how to get people behind you. That's finally the most important thing you have as a leader. It's relatively easy to have good strategic ideas, but to make your people follow, that's the hard part.

Nisha Pillai 00:20:19

Pascal Niquille, it's been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us on The Agenda.