Nisha Pillai 00:00:06

Wherever we look, our world is facing a huge range of unprecedented challenges. So if you're a leader right now, how do you navigate your way through this? How do you make decisions in the teeth of so much uncertainty? How are you going to reconnect to your people and rebuild your team so that they're fit to face the future? And what does that even mean to be a leader in such an increasingly challenging world?

These and other questions I've been putting to top business leaders from across Europe, and I've had some surprisingly candid responses. So why don't you join me, Nisha Pillai, for the latest episode brought to you by Sherpany of The Agenda.

My guest today believes that good leaders should not be afraid to reinvent themselves, and that's something he's done many times over. He's led companies at the very highest level, CEO level across many different industries from pharmaceuticals, financial services and chemicals, just to mention a few. Currently, he is chairman of the Swiss Stock Exchange, the SIX and a few other companies too. Let me introduce you to Thomas Wellauer.

Welcome, Thomas. It's good to have you with us on The Agenda.

Thomas Wellauer 00:01:26

Hi Nisha, thank you for having me.

Nisha Pillai 00:01:30

I really wanted to start our conversation today, Thomas, by asking you about that time when everything seemed to be going swimmingly, you were master of the universe at Credit Suisse and then almost overnight, bang, deep trouble. You ended up losing your job as Credit Suisse ended up reporting huge losses. That was back in 2002, I believe. Can you take us back then? Tell us what happened, how you felt?

Thomas Wellauer 00:01:57

Yeah, I can take you back. I actually never forget that morning. You know, when you sit in front of your screen, typically there is one email after the other coming in. And that morning at about 07:05, it stopped. No more e-mails that when it was announced that I was leaving Credit Suisse.

Nisha Pillai 00:02:17

Is that how you discovered what had happened?

Thomas Wellauer 00:02:20

No, it wasn't how I discovered. I knew a few hours before around midnight, and as you know how these things go, I mean, the board decides and then the next morning it has to be announced at 7:00 before the stock market opens. So I knew, but I was sitting in, really in my office that morning and it was absolutely amazing. My my emails just stopped coming in.

It was a very defining moment because I obviously started to think a lot in the weeks and months thereafter about what had gone wrong. What should I have done differently? What mistakes did I make? And I think that reflection in a way that made me, I believe, made me a better manager and a better leader afterwards.

Nisha Pillai 00:03:17

Why do you say that? How did you change what's the evidence that you became a better manager, Thomas?

Thomas Wellauer 00:03:23

I know I was before, and I know how I was after. It's kind of difficult to explain. I mean, you said at the time before it was a not immediately before when I was leaving Credit Suisse because that was a big crisis and that was in all the newspapers. And that in itself was a very difficult time. But before that, everything was going really well.

I had a really very nice career and then all of a sudden finished. And it's not only finished, but also Switzerland is a small country and it was a very public outing and, therefore, also a very public failure. And I have to sort of really think about, you know, where would I again be able to make a contribution and find a new job?

Nisha Pillai 00:04:20

And what was that period like immediately after you had to leave Credit Suisse and you suddenly became a zero man? What did you have to cope with?

Thomas Wellauer 00:04:29

That was part of the experience. I mean, you all of the sudden realise what you always knew, but you realise it very directly, that you actually are what your job is. And if you're not in the job anymore, no more invitations, no more events, no more emails. You know, no one will ask you for a decision if you have nothing to decide. So that was in itself a very interesting experience after that.

On the one hand, as I said, I was reflecting a lot. I really spent a lot of time sort of going into the history, what went well, what went not so well, what did I do right, what I did wrong, etc. And on the practical side, I used all the connections that I had and talked to many, many people about opportunities, trying to find a new sort of a new position, or a new way to get back into the flow of of big companies.

Nisha Pillai 00:05:36

So how did you claw your way back into a responsible position, reinvent yourself, I suppose, and persuade someone to take a risk on you after such a public failure?

Thomas Wellauer 00:05:46

It was a bit of luck. And on the other hand, it was just persistency. I had many discussions. Many people that were actually looking for someone with my profile shied away from having hiring someone with  such a public figure negatively sort of looked at. And then at Clarient, the situation was different. The company was desperate. They were looking for someone and it clearly helped it was another industry, I think that made a big difference.

Nisha Pillai 00:06:22

So Clariant is a chemical company very different from financials, which is very different from Credit Suisse. But what was it that enabled them to overlook it as it were the, if you don't mind me saying so, the kind of perfume of failure around you at the time?

Thomas Wellauer 00:06:38

I think it was a couple of things. One, it was that I had a background, I'm a chemical engineer by training and I have worked in the Pharma industry before, at least as a consultant. But I think it was more the necessity of finding someone who had, as they believed, the skills to help them run the restructuring and basically help save the company from bankruptcy.

Nisha Pillai 00:07:06

Clarient was in a very difficult position, and this is not something that happened overnight, several other top managers had tried to sort it out and not succeeded. So how did you manage to turn the company around? What did you do differently do you think, Thomas?

Thomas Wellauer 00:07:22

I think I approached it in a very analytical way, really out spending a little bit of time analysing the situation and then developing a programme which was very, you know, you could say very analytical, very fact based and a step by step approach to how we could turn around the company and very detailed in many ways. And in that sense, I think also very credible to people.

Nisha Pillai 00:07:54

And you had to persuade the employees who must have been pretty cynical and apprehensive by then to trust your plan.

Thomas Wellauer 00:08:02

Absolutely. I think this was about the third time around where they have tried to turn around the company. And as always, in these situations, you have 10 percent who are ready to try one more time. You have 10 percent. You can tell them whatever you want. They will not believe you. And you have 80 percent of the people sitting on the fence and saying, OK, let's watch what's coming and then we'll make up our mind if we join or if we don't.

Nisha Pillai 00:08:31

So, how those 80 percent of staff were sitting on the fence view you, the new leader, is pretty important, isn't it?

Thomas Wellauer 00:08:40

It was.

Nisha Pillai 00:08:40

What do you think was, you know, as a leader? What is what is it that leaders should be doing in that kind of situation to engage with the 80 percent who are so important?
 
Thomas Wellauer 00:08:51

What was really important was to be very transparent about the situation. Very transparent about what went well, which was, you know, also there are some areas which went well and also be very transparent about where the issues were. That was sort of one thing.

And the other thing is to then lay out the programme, which was clear of where we wanted to get to by when, but at the other hand, also had intermediate steps where you could measure if we were on the right track and then sort of going around and talking about this all the time. And I think what helped me also was that, as I mentioned before, I was a chemical engineer by training.

Nisha Pillai 00:09:38

Restructurings are really difficult things to do. No one wants to. Do you think you need a different kind of mindset as a leader to restructure than what you need to lead a company which is expanding and growing?

Thomas Wellauer 00:09:54

I'm not so sure. I think at the end, it boils down always to the same ingredients, you sort of have to understand where the situation is, then you have to sort of build your belief, your own belief of where you want to take the company to, and eventually you'll have to explain it.

So you have to tell it to whoever needs to know about it and you have to do that very, very consistently. So it takes, I guess, a very analytical mindset at the beginning to understand where you are. You need self-confidence once you've sort of shaped your beliefs and it takes good communication skills when you need to explain the story to people.

I think the story is really important, but the story has to be founded in facts. I don't think you can tell people something great and they will just believe it and follow you. It has to be grounded in facts.

Nisha Pillai 00:10:57

You're a very analytical person, clearly. Storytelling is also important to you. Why does creativity come in in this mix? Is it important for managers? For leaders?

Thomas Wellauer 00:11:08

 I think it's actually very important and I think the fact that you can imagine where you want to take a company to and then also how you want to do it is a very creative act. You know, there's this saying about thinking out of the box, which is certainly true, although, you know, if you go too far from the box, I think it becomes a bit of fantasy. But I think this is it, it is a very creative act.

Nisha Pillai 00:11:38

So being able to take that leap of faith, being able to project into the future is a key part of leadership then I think from what I'm hearing you say?

Thomas Wellauer 00:11:49

Absolutely, absolutely. I think that that's actually a very important part of leadership.

Nisha Pillai 00:11:55

I want to ask you about the different aspects of your life. You've done so many things, worn different hats and reinvented yourself as I said earlier. Twelve years as a consultant at McKinsey and very successful at that banking, chemicals, Pharma, you're now sit on various boards, including chairman of the stock exchange. Do you need different leadership styles in these different roles?

Thomas Wellauer 00:12:19

One of the most important things is to be authentic. I don't think you can have a style which you copy from someone else. So at the end, you have to be yourself. And that's what I think makes you a strong leader, that people believe what you say and what you show is you. So I don't think I have different leadership styles in different situations. I am sure I have developed over time and have become a different leader, marked by experience, and especially in my case, many different experiences.

Nisha Pillai 00:12:58

Who would you be today, do you think, Thomas, if things hadn't gone so very wrong for you at Credit Suisse back in 2002?

Thomas Wellauer 00:13:06

That's a very good question. It's actually a question I asked myself a few times. Also obviously difficult to say, but I truly believe that, you know, being thrown back and in a sense, despite that or since that experience, having this sort of nagging fear of doing the wrong thing, I think has actually kept me from being maybe a bit more prudent in some situations, thinking about something one more time before deciding on it and before doing it. And I think that has been very, very helpful.

Self-confidence is important, but it can also take you to sort of losing touch with reality. And I think having had this kind of experience of failure and then as a consequence, this sort of nagging fear of doing something which might take you there again is a very helpful experience.

Nisha Pillai 00:14:11

Losing touch has made me think about the generation gap. I'm going to turn into a completely different subject now, Thomas. There's such a generation gap between most of the senior leaders of today and the talent pool that they're leading the younger generation. But they have different values, they have different worries, environment, for instance, very different social values.

How does the leadership generation remain grounded and connected to the younger generation?

Thomas Wellauer 00:14:47

One way is your own children, because they are part of that generation you were just talking about. And I have three of my own. And I think to have a very good relationship, have a very intensive dialogue with them on all kinds of topics, it keeps you in touch. And the other thing is also in the company, when you set up projects or when you have discussions to make sure that you're not always talking to the same people, and especially not only to the people of your own generation.

Nisha Pillai 00:15:25

What have your children challenged you? What have your children got you to rethink because they can challenge in the way that nobody else can challenge, right?

Thomas Wellauer 00:15:35

It's less what they have done, and it's more sort of the imagination. That's something I could do and they would sort of lose their trust in me as their father. That keeps you honest in many ways, because I personally I feel as a father to not be able to explain what you have done to your children.

Nisha Pillai 00:15:59

I'm going to ask you now to make a leap of imagination, and that is to try and muse on what this, quote 'post-Covid' era we're living in with increasingly virtual work spaces, what is it really going to mean in terms of leadership, how a leader is going to have to change their tools, their priorities to respond to this if this becomes the new normal, more or less permanent?

Thomas Wellauer 00:16:24

I'm not so sure this becomes the new normal. I think we'll go back to a mixture of physical and virtual. And I think for a number of reasons. One, I think people's memories are much shorter than what we think now. It's such a difference if you can have a conversation on a difficult topic or a creative topic, even more so in a physical setting or in a virtual setting. So that's maybe the first point.

Secondly, as long as you can have interactions one-on-one or maybe in small groups of, say, two to four people, virtual actually works quite well. If you go to larger groups, it becomes very difficult. You have to have an order. People have to speak in order, it becomes a very different style of meeting. And then some people are physical and or onsite and others are on the screen. It's even worse.

So I'm not so sure that this will change much. I think it will be more challenging for leaders in order to decide where is the right balance between people's wishes to work more from home and the company's needs to have people on site in order to also have informal meetings.

Nisha Pillai 00:17:54

Thomas, our podcast series is called Leaders on Leadership. So I wondered, is there a final thought you'd like to leave our listeners with?

Thomas Wellauer 00:18:02

One thing  which I often find in discussions with younger people is they all talk about leadership and I always tell them, but don't forget, in order to be a good leader, you also have to be a good manager. And I think John Carter once said management is coping with complexity and leadership is coping with change.

And I think if you're not able to organise a company or your tasks or whatever in a way that your own people believe that you do that in a way that is efficient and effective, it's going to be very difficult then to take people and lead them into change, to go into completely new territories. So that's maybe one thought, which I would like to make sure that people understand.

Nisha Pillai 00:19:01

Thomas, thank you so much for being candid with us. It's been a pleasure having you with us on The Agenda.

Thomas Wellauer 00:19:06

Thank you very much, Nisha.